The Black Rabbit of Inlé ([info]bakkhos) wrote,
@ 2008-01-25 15:41:00
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Entry tags:itachi, naruto chapter

Hope Springs Eternal: A Manifesto for the 3-Dimensional Villain
Kishi, why you gotta play a girl like that? .___.

I'm happy and slightly embarrassed to admit that chapter 386 wasn't as bad as I feared it would be. Kishimoto did not completely change Itachi's character.

Nor did he make Itachi a one-dimensional villain. Quite the contrary.

Also, must totally pimp [info]zapenstap's most recent essay on Itachi's development here.

SPOILERS FOR MOST RECENT NARUTO CHAPTER.





Masashi Kishimoto is at a crossroads. On the one hand, he can write Itachi as a tragic figure. On the other, he can write Itachi as a Dark Lord, a villain who has no motive outside of gaining more power for the sake of power. I'm not exactly sure how he'll maneuver, but I definitely know where I'd like it to go.

I'm not entirely sure why some Naruto fans desire Itachi to be nothing more than he seems on the surface. I'll never really understand the inclination. I find antagonists so much more interesting when they possess motives we can understand. Who of us identifies with the cackling villains of old who live only to take over the world? Very few, I'd wager. I never expected Itachi to be similar to that archetype.

Zabuza is the reason why.

I entrusted myself to Kishimoto because I fell in love with the Zabuza and Haku arc. Perhaps I judged poorly, but I doubt it.

Momochi Zabuza is not a hero by any means. The Demon of the Mist is better known as an S-ranked criminal, an assassin, wanted for such crimes as attempting to bring down a Kage in order to assume his place. We eventually come to learn that his criminality is likely due to his upbringing: Kirigakure was not a nice place. As part of the Academy graduation test, students were required to cut down their friends like weeds. (Zabuza went on to take down the entire graduating class.) Kishimoto did not mention this so we could excuse Zabuza of his later misdeeds. He mentioned it so we could get some perspective as to why someone like him exists.

Later, we come to learn that Zabuza is not the exception to the rule: most ninja of his generation were schooled during wartime. The philosophy was tough and uncompromising. It allowed little room for viewing humans as persons. But rather, people (ninja) were thought of as tools, weapons for the village's gain. Is it any wonder, then, that Zabuza insisted the boy with the bloodline limit he picked up along the road was nothing more than a useful tool for his own gain?



Oh, how he fooled himself. Human nature isn't that easy to overcome. Note the following exchange in the aptly-titled A Tool Called Shinobi.







As strong as Zabuza was, he could not escape his humanity. Would anyone call Momochi Zabuza "soft" for admitting that his bonds meant something to him? Would anyone go so far as to say his evil deeds lost their luster because he acknowledged that he was more than who he seemed on the surface?




Why should it be any different for Uchiha Itachi?

This was my thinking when I was introduced to the Uchiha brothers. It would be skillful for Kishimoto to set up the Mist arc to foreshadow later events. It is my opinion that the story of the Uchihas should rightly parallel this opening. I entrusted myself to Kishimoto, following his works loyally, because he demonstrated that he understood that villains were just humans in the end, not cardboard cutouts of evil. Zabuza acted monstrously not because of some character flaw, but because he was shaped in a society that attempted to turn humans into killing machines.

In essence, his villains had depth.



Instead of writing off these antagonists as an anomalies, we are forced to reflect deeply on how we ourselves help create the "monsters" we see amongst us.

This is why the story of Uchiha Itachi is more powerful when viewed as tragedy. He may have personal flaws, but in the end I think it would be folly to write him off as simply insane or sociopathic. His story could be a means of self-reflection, as so many other stories in Naruto have encouraged.

It is silly to say that Kishimoto is incapable of writing characters who blur the lines between good and evil simply because this is shounen manga. We've seen it in Zabuza. "Evil" people can act for the good sometimes ("evil" Zabuza taking out the "evil" mobsters was a "good" action.) "Evil" people can also feel unselfish emotions in direct opposition to their upbringing or personal philosophies (Zabuza's feelings for Haku.)

Should we be surprised if Uchiha Itachi does the same?

He and Zabuza both grew up during the same harsh wartime era that encouraged a ninja code that did not allow valuing others for who they were, but rather for what they could do. How much profit they could bring the village or the clan. How useful they could be.




The clan Uchiha, we know now from chapter 386, has a history no prettier than Kirigakure. The path to power lay not only in killing your best friend (as in the Academy graduation test in Kirigakure), but your brother as well.





Saying the clan was tainted because of their quest for power is incredibly interesting coming from one who professes to not be above and beyond this taint for his own gain.

Calling them wretched is even more so.

If Uchiha Itachi were a stock villain, you might guess that he would approve of his clan's power-hungry legacy. Why, then, is he so adamantly hateful toward them, just as he was when he was thirteen?

The desire for Sasuke's eyes seem to go above and beyond power for the sake of power. He claims to want to surpass Madara. Why? Is there a reason outside of the desire to become the most powerful? What is the point of becoming the most powerful if you have no one to use your power against? Madara used his power to first rule his clan, then Konoha. Itachi destroyed his clan and has forsaken Konoha.

What does he mean by saying he would be free of the clan's wretched destiny? If he is not free of it now, who or what is the yoke?




Honor. In such contrast to Itachi's talk of wretchedness and taint. Was he simply parroting the praises likely sung by the Uchiha clan themselves of their greatness? They were, after all, a highly respected, if not the most highly respected clan in the village. It would be no surprise if this came as a result of the clan wishing to create a lovely public image to make up for the taint of Madara, who betrayed the village. As the clan heir, you might expect these statements to be drilled into Itachi from a very young age. If he was to be a useful connection for the clan, he would have to be schooled to believe in their greatness.

Despite their history. Which was conveniently hidden away under the seventh tatami mat at the back of the Uchiha Nakano Temple. Which Itachi seemed to be aware of at that point. After all, it is clear that Itachi is highly suspicious of everything his father tells him that day. He seems to share the very same hostility during this outburst some time later.




Is it a coincidence that at that very moment Sasuke remembers Itachi mentioning the honor of the clan?

What is this hope he once held for the clan? Could the hope and honor be related?

Could he once have hoped to restore the honor of his clan?

How would he restore their honor? Is it at all related to his quest to reach the height of his capacity?

Why exactly does Uchiha Itachi want to become strong?






Hope and honor. Not the traits valued by a one-dimensional villain.

If this is the road Kishimoto will take in characterizing him, Itachi would still a villain. Are we to approve the slaughter of the mobsters at Zabuza's hands just because the mobsters have been identified as less-than-innocent? No, of course not. Just as we are not expected to approve Itachi's decision to murder the clan.

The key to a well-rounded antagonist is motive. Motives we can understand, maybe even sympathize with on some level.

We do not sympathize with a completely insane Itachi because we do not understand the reason why he acted as he did. If Kishimoto decides to go down the path of portraying Itachi as nothing more than a psychotic mastermind, then we will expect Sasuke to cut him down like a mad dog, and will feel nothing for him. This would be doing Itachi and ourselves a great disservice, I believe. Killing people "just because" does not allow us to sit back and examine the nature of our own humanity, nor does it allow us to reflect on the ways our own society may be responsible in creating people like Itachi or Zabuza. Making these villains possess some admirable traits can help us realize that maybe they are not so different from us. If we are not so different, then what, we should ask, went wrong with those boys?

The complex villain also allows for such delicious ironies as these: Itachi and Sasuke may both be convinced that they must kill the other in order for them to restore the honor of their clan. If that isn't epic storytelling, I don't know what is.





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[info]zelos22
2008-01-26 10:12 am UTC (link)
awesome post, so full of truth!!!

i was glad that the new chapter wasnt as bad as everyone was making it out to be... if anything, im more fascinated with the Uchiha clan than ever 8D

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 10:16 am UTC (link)
Thanks, I'm really glad you liked it. :)

I was one of those who totally freaked at seeing the spoiler pic, basically because I was worried that Kishimoto intended to undermine Itachi's personality in order to strip him of all dignity (easier to root for the protagonist if the villain is completely batshit insane.) But I'm glad to see that's not the case. In my mind, he deepened Itachi's characterization rather than butchered it.

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(no subject) - [info]zelos22, 2008-01-26 01:22 pm UTC

[info]kylara
2008-01-26 11:01 am UTC (link)
I love you and your insight on Itachi and your understanding of storytelling dreadfully. What would I do without you? *___* I'm rooting for the 3-dimensional Itachi, as well as some other things. XD

And I am extraordinarily jealous of you and Zapenstap's ability to write meaningful, cohesive essays! I can't even tell you how much I'd like to write like this. It's very beautiful, very elegant, and easily ties meanings together.

It's 3am, I need to be asleep. And so do you! I'll look at this again tomorrow. <3

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 12:03 pm UTC (link)
If it makes you feel any better, I was a incoherent wreck for most of the day, ranting and raving like happy pills Itachi! a complete lunatic thinking that Kishimoto had butchered Itachi (lol I wrote 'thinking that Itachi had butchered Kishimoto' ... SLEEP WHAT'S THAT?)

Then I sat down to read the scanlation, still mumbling and grumbling "AH OMG I CAN'T BELIEVE ... Oh wait, he said what now? Oh. Shit. FOR REAL?"

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[info]heartless_venus
2008-01-26 11:10 am UTC (link)
wonderfull! ^_^

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 12:03 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! ♥

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[info]thursday_kat
2008-01-26 12:47 pm UTC (link)
this is really, really well done :D as someone who could not write herself out of the dreaded 'logical, well-thoughtout essay' bag, i am incredibly impressed.

and i am with you in the hope that kishi goes the route of depth over pure insanity for insanities sake. if only because i too love a bad guy who's actually developed :D crazy innit!

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 06:29 pm UTC (link)
:D!

I agree, well-developed villains make for a so much more satisfying reading experience. Straw men may be easy to knock down, but they ain't as much fun.

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[info]helike
2008-01-26 01:31 pm UTC (link)
I find antagonists so much more interesting when they possess motives we can understand.

Amen. People never are evil just because they are evil, there always is a reason. Even if said reason is not understandable for others. Personally, I'd really like to see Itachi turning into "tragic character".

I might be wrong, but I think that Itachi was a kind of an idealist when he was younger. It could be that Itachi's vision of the clan was completely different from what the clan appeared to be in fact, and that's why Itachi declared he had lost the hope. At some point he believed that the clan could change, but it appeared to be impossible. Anyway, it must have really painful to have all his believes shattered :(

And about the latest chapter. Remember that everything that we saw was inside genjutsu. Ergo - it was something that Itachi fully controlled from the beginning to the end, even though many would like to think otherwise. Itachi is the master of genjutsu, no way some things would be given away accidentally. Sasuke saw exactly what he was to see - nothing more, nothing less. I guess that part of the things we saw indeed was truth, but not necessary everything. Itachi is a master of half-truths >_>; I guess that the main reason we saw THAT Itachi's face was that for some reason Itachi wants to force Sasuke to fight him. Sasuke would have never reacted to usual!Itachi talking rubbish, but for sure he reacts to insane!Itachi, because he's not his brother anymore. Hope it makes sense >_>;

Plus, why he's teaching Sasuke the real clan's history, huh? Everything has its own reason, we just can't see it clearly at the moment.

Nice to see that there still are people that think in the fandom :)

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 06:54 pm UTC (link)
Evil for the sake of evil should be reserved strictly for fairy tales. XD

I agree very much that Itachi was likely an idealist when he was younger. On the porch with Sasuke, he acknowledges in a shrouded language that he once held dreams, but they did not come to fruition, or turn out the way he originally expected. Wouldn't it be funny if Itachi grew up wholeheartedly embracing his position as clan heir? Wouldn't it be funny if he honestly believed he could rule with a just hand, if he believed the clan was the best thing since sliced bread? Then over time he slowly saw this dream die? The rise to power and his discovery of his clan's less-than-noble history might have ground his idealism into the ground, and when he realized the clan would do little to act to change / acknowledge the past, that would be the last nail in the coffin, so to speak. Gah, that's why I love Itachi. His story has the potential to have so many layers of complexity, if Kishi is interested in exploring that.

Ergo - it was something that Itachi fully controlled from the beginning to the end, even though many would like to think otherwise.

You know, most people thought crazy!Itachi was the most hilarious thing. Me, I thought it was amusing, but I absolutely ROFL'd at his "oh, so you, uh ... saw my real self O_O;;" face. XDDDDD But you're right. He probably let loose to catch Sasuke off guard, as [info]molten_ghost suggested to me.

Sasuke would have never reacted to usual!Itachi talking rubbish, but for sure he reacts to insane!Itachi, because he's not his brother anymore.

Exactly. Sasuke may feel he is doing Itachi a favor for putting Itachi out of his less-than-the-usual-dignified misery. It's so much easier to kill a crazy stranger threatening to rip your eyes out than a once-beloved older brother.

Plus, why he's teaching Sasuke the real clan's history, huh?

I think he may want Sasuke to understand why he is planning to do what he plans. Now that Sasuke is (to him) near death, and not an eight-year-old child anymore, he may feel he owes him the truth. Maybe he hopes Sasuke will see that Itachi has always been in "the right" (so that Sasuke willingly offers himself as a sacrifice ... maybe as Shisui once did? [info]zapenstap elaborates more on that in her most recent essay.)

Nice to see that there still are people that think in the fandom

Thinking is fun! /nerdy

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]helike, 2008-01-26 07:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-26 08:58 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]helike, 2008-01-26 10:25 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-26 11:54 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]helike, 2008-01-27 01:30 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 04:35 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]helike, 2008-01-27 04:55 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 04:36 pm UTC

[info]mercurychaos
2008-01-26 02:15 pm UTC (link)
This is very impressive and well-thought out... may I post a link to it on naruto_asylum at InsaneJournal?

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 06:56 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, and of course! :3

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[info]ew_younerd
2008-01-26 03:09 pm UTC (link)
I never understood why ONE panel, before the entire chapter even came out, made people think Itachi was ruined as a character. :I

Itachi is interesting in his hypocrisy; he's well-aware of what power can do to you at thirteen, and well aware of the arrogance of his clan. In fact, he detests their ways, it would seem. However, we see him exhibit violent and reclusive behaviour as he gains more and more power and has more expectations placed upon him. Not only that, but from a narrative point of view, it's very imperative to look at the speech Itachi gives the police about the Clan, and Fuugaku commenting "Such arrogance..." about Itachi's words. At that moment, Sasuke recalls what Itachi said about gaining power and the arrogance that comes along with it, because your dreams die. Itachi then says he's lost hope for the clan.

It all makes sense, really. Even today, as he's been shrouded in the darkness and corruption of the power that's come with the Mangekyou, and the madness and self-righteousness he holds about his own entitlement to that power, he detests the clan's ways.

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[info]swordage
2008-01-26 05:40 pm UTC (link)
When I saw your icon I laughed and snorted at the same time and my ear did a weird painful thing. D: It needs a warning, for realz. (I kid, it is hilarious beyond belief. XD But really, that was pretty painful. God, I can't stop looking at it.)

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(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-26 07:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 11:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 04:10 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 04:24 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 04:40 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 05:37 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 05:44 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 06:14 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 06:18 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 06:23 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]fukkafyla, 2008-01-27 06:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 07:07 pm UTC

[info]joyinthedance
2008-01-26 03:33 pm UTC (link)
Oh I do so love you. I also freaked out over the spoiler pic, but like you, when I read the scanlation, didn't think it was quite as bad as I had feared. I still felt let down, though. Your essay, which is so clear, really changed my mind. I do think this new development can deepen Itachi's character. I'm fascinated by the contradiction of his disgust with the clan and his by the book adherence to their historical path to power. Interesting stuff.

As you see, I had made an icon for this chapter, but I might have to get rid of it now. XD Unless Kishi ends up botching Itachi in chapters to come. We shall see

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Lol, I love your icon! In fact, I just may take it if you don't mind. XDDD It really explains the "OMGWTFBBQ?!" moment when the Krazeetachi spoiler was released.

I'm really happy that I could help shed some light on this chapter. It's really funny how I went from adamantly hating it due to my (lol) preconceived notions, to going "huh?" to finally seeing some meaningful connections to past chapters.

Itachi seems to have no qualms about his own hypocrisy. I find that fascinating too.

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(no subject) - [info]joyinthedance, 2008-01-27 05:19 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 05:36 pm UTC

[info]kidouche
2008-01-26 03:35 pm UTC (link)
You know. Part of me knew this all along. He showed disdain for the clan since he was young, so his motives are quite logical.

I won't deny, I like the idea of him snapping A LOT because I don't think you can hold on to all that anger so long before you crack, but...yeah. XD

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 07:49 pm UTC (link)
I think his outburst with the police was his version of snapping. The massacre was definitely planned, but I don't think that police incident was anything other than his brain breaking. ^o^

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[info]muncide
2008-01-26 03:40 pm UTC (link)
lolol whut-- that panel where Kisho shows Itachi's blurry vision of Sasuke? I HAVE WORSE EYESIGHT.

I wonder what Itachi means by "sadly, he was stopped again, this time by the fourth hokage?" :O

No to mention how Itachi is supposedly going to take Sasuke's non-mangekyou'd eyes. If he didn't intend to take Sasuke's eyes until he obtained the mangekyou, did he really have to leave Sasuke alive? :V


Oh! I'm so relieved. :D

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[info]lucidfirefly
2008-01-26 04:17 pm UTC (link)
Because it's implied that Madara summoned the kyuubi to Konoha. Most likely to destroy it and Minato stopped him by sealing it within Naruto. It makes sense.

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(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-26 07:59 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]muncide, 2008-01-26 11:22 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 07:32 pm UTC

[info]lucidfirefly
2008-01-26 04:22 pm UTC (link)
Um. I totally flipped when I saw that one panel because he looked remarkably like the wicked witch of the west. :I I'm glad he calmed down afterward, and the chapter offered a lot of insight into the clan's history. Still I think there's a lot of shadows that need illumination.

I always thought Itachi was odd in his actions, because he was charged to capture Naruto and yet he has yet to do so. Was he waiting until his fight with Sasuke in order to have the eternal mangekyou? We all know that Madara by doing what Itachi wants to do gained the power to forever control jinchuuriki.

Maybe Itachi was merely biding his time? I don't know. Naruto is a loose end with both the brothers, more oddly so for Itachi than Sasuke who at least knew him well growing up. Why did Itachi want to talk to Naruto's shadow clone before Madara stopped the party? Just talk. And seemed confused when Naruto talked about being a 'good' brother. I thought he knew how to be one, if he'd been acting all those years ago.

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 09:24 pm UTC (link)
I totally flipped when I saw that one panel because he looked remarkably like the wicked witch of the west.

That's really funny, because before the pic came out, when we got a look at the spoiler dialogue, my flist and I lol'd because he sounded like the Wicked Witch of the West. "Come here, my pretty! Let me pluck out thine eyes eeeeeeeeeeheheheheheee!"

I always thought Itachi was odd in his actions, because he was charged to capture Naruto and yet he has yet to do so. Was he waiting until his fight with Sasuke in order to have the eternal mangekyou?

You know how Itachi was expected by the clan to do certain things, and he found every way out of doing them? I can't help but imagine the Akatsuki thing is similar. At least, at 13 he was disgusted by the clan, and was irritated when their goals clashed with his. I think he is equally disgusted with Madara and, like that moody pre-teen he was back then, felt no need to follow orders. Not that he would openly dispute them. No, he would do what bureaucrats do when they don't feel like complying with policy: he'd intentionally slow things down. Since they need all 9 Akatsuki members to extract the Kyuubi, he'd want to slow things down until he was prepared to use the Kyuubi for himsef, rather than follow orders quickly and give Kyuubi to Madara.

I don't think he was confused when Naruto said he was a better brother to Sasuke than Itachi was. I think that smile meant he was amused, rather. Probably because he realized that Naruto saying Sasuke was like a brother to him meant Naruto would be the perfect sacrifice (the one Sasuke would use to get the Mangakyou.) Because Shisui was like a brother to Itachi, and he used him in a similar manner. Maybe that was the one question he wanted to ask, and Naruto answered it to his liking.

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(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 05:17 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 05:18 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 07:36 pm UTC

[info]arsenicgraffiti
2008-01-26 04:45 pm UTC (link)
Here from [info]chuunin.

It hit me while I was reading this, around the part where you mentioned Itachi wanting to suppress Madara, that Itachi might really be aiming for wiping out their entire clan including their founder, possibly to (completely?) resolve the hypocrisy within the Uchiha clan (safeguarding the safety of others while causing others harm themselves) and also to, in some way, restore the honor of the clan by ridding Konoha of one cause of strife. This is a bloody way of 'payback', the lives of his clan for the lives that his clan's actions have affected. It also makes sense, as insane as it sounds, and it's possible that thinking in such a (disillusioned?) manner for so long has twisted his mind.

...and now I'm wondering what the possibilities are of him killing himself or letting himself be killed once this is over. ._. Should stop babbling now.

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 09:38 pm UTC (link)
It hit me while I was reading this...

I'm really glad you made that connection. That's how I imagined those two panels were related. Itachi viewed himself as the shinobi that would righteously take down the criminal shinobi (Madara) and in order to do that, he needed to become immensely powerful, more powerful than Madara. Hence his desire to reach the height. Ironic, since all throughout the manga he himself is a wanted criminal. It's fascinating to think that he might view himself as a true Konoha policeman, going to great heights in order to take down the biggest SOB Konoha had ever seen. Itachi is a hero in his own mind. So twisted!

He talks about becoming immortal, so I don't think he plans to kill himself once he has destroyed his mentor, though the idea is lovely and tragic and fitting (he has worked to destroy every last Uchiha to rid the world of their taint.) If he really does have a God complex, he might think he could become who Madara should have been. Which is a scary thought, given that absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Edited at 2008-01-26 09:39 pm UTC

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(no subject) - [info]arsenicgraffiti, 2008-01-27 06:23 am UTC

[info]lucidfirefly
2008-01-26 05:29 pm UTC (link)
[info]leaf_kunoichi said that we wall want the three-dimensional villain, but we might not get it. Because as many have pointed out, this isn't a complex manga. Bonds and human interactions are the main focus the storytelling is in effect rather simplistic; most of the villains are a bit generic, as are most of the supporting cast despite their differing abilities.

The protagonist and those closest to him are the ones who are supposed to shine brighter than the rest, even the villains. Not to say that one or two of them might not shine respectively, but let's face it; everything ultimately adds to Naruto's development.

It's nice of us to delve deeply into this and theorize like I did about comparing Sasuke and Itachi to Jacob and Esau from the Bible, but as was also pointed out to me-- this is a simple story. Apart from the obvious, not much of what we think will happen in fact will.

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 09:56 pm UTC (link)
I think a lot of people insist that the manga is so simplistic as a defense mechanism to avoid being disappointed if the manga does not live up to its potential.

Me, my hope is boundless. As a writer myself, I pray that Kishimoto will push himself to not settle for the easy way out. I'm not sure if he will choose to do so, but I at least want to show that he had the option to go down an epic path. He set it up so perfectly, but then, some writers just falter when it comes to delivering a powerful ending. Most writers have no idea about some of the themes present in their work until the very end. Unfortunately, Kishi does not have the same luxury of a novelist, who can go back once they are finished and realize what their theme was (and if they can strengthen it, can revise to make it even more powerful.) In that respect, I feel bad for him. He has to make the first draft the final one.

All characters exist to function in some way. The difference between a good writer and a great writer is that the great writer understands that even when one character needs to act as another's foil (or needs to play a supplementary role in order to enhance the hero), they ought to get the same level of respect as the main character. Especially villains. Especially villains whose actions drive the plot of the entire story. Villains are the conflict that create the story in the first place. If their stories/motives/reasons are not given much thought, the entire story is weaker for it.

Could I have a link to your article? I love comparisons like that.

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(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 05:33 am UTC

[info]senior_witch
2008-01-26 07:20 pm UTC (link)
Interesting ideas... The chapter made me think a lot as well.

Some mysteries however remain.

1. If Itachi detests this "tradition" of his clan, why is he still after Sasuke's eyes? Why does he not accept blindness as the punishment for the crime he committed against Shisui instead of adding another crime, killing his brother, to this first one?

2. Maybe it is possible that the clan managed to hide its practice of making kids kill their friends or siblings from the rest of the village and also from the younger siblings who were not to know that they were the spares for their older brothers or sisters.
But the men who came to question Itachi after the death of Shisui were Uchihas. If it had been commonly accepted practice among the Uchihas to kill their friends and siblings, they must have considered it completely normal that Itachi has killed his friends (just as in Stardust it is considered completely normal that the princes kill their brothers so that the surviving prince can become king). They would not have questioned him among it, but they should have congratulated him on gaining the Mangekyou Sharingan.

There are different kinds of honour, depending on one's values. One can see honour in righteousness, one can see honour in strength. Also, Itachi may think that the clan's wretchedness consists in the cruel tradition, but he might think that it consists in the fate of blindness.

Sasuke's father tells Sasuke that only few people have awakened the MS and that it can only be awakened under certain conditions. Which means that it was not normal for members of the Uchiha clan to have the Mangekyou Sharingan.

I don't know who is lying, Sasuke's father or Itachi. At the moment I tend to think that it have always been only a few Uchihas who killed their friends and their brothers.

Also I think that the part of the story is not told on the tablets in the secret place in the basement of the temple. Sasuke goes there and only finds information about controling the kyuubi. He does not learn about the blindness, nor about how to circumvent it.

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-26 10:18 pm UTC (link)
I'm totally speculating here.

1. Itachi is likely still after Sasuke's eyes because he has a mission (to destroy Madara and end the clan's taint once and for all.) He probably planned this from the beginning. Remember how he tells Sasuke that great criminal shinobi can only be taken down by superior shinobi? In other words, he was trying to say that the man who created the cycle of bloodshed needed to be taken down by someone even greater: Itachi himself. In order to gain that power, Sasuke would have to cooperate. Itachi has always been aware that he is a hypocrite. He detests the tradition while planning to carry out the tradition. He becomes isolated and arrogant while detesting the clan for becoming isolated and arrogant. It doesn't seem to bother him. None of his actions seem to bother him, because he believes in the righteousness of his cause. (Which is the root of all evil imho.)

2. I think the clan absolutely wanted to keep the history a secret. I don't think they took part in the bloody practice at the time Itachi was a child. Perhaps they wanted to start anew in Konoha and turn a blind eye to the fact that Madara was still out there. With Madara out there, the cycle of bloodshed would remain, at least that's how Itachi saw it. That's why the police were so fearful of the idea that Itachi might "betray" them. Betray them how? In revealing a secret which might destroy their respected position in the village?

Also I think that the part of the story is not told on the tablets in the secret place in the basement of the temple. Sasuke goes there and only finds information about controling the kyuubi.

Oh, lol, you're right! Which makes even more sense. The policemen were frightened that Itachi was in cahoots with Madara, maybe? Frightened that he knew the history when the history needed to be kept a secret? Frightened that Itachi would continue the practice they intended to ban?

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(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2008-01-26 10:26 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-26 11:09 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 05:55 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2008-01-27 08:24 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 05:48 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2008-01-27 08:32 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 09:20 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]senior_witch, 2008-01-27 05:51 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]lucidfirefly, 2008-01-27 09:23 am UTC

[info]amelia_seyroon
2008-01-26 11:44 pm UTC (link)
This seriously makes me wonder how it was with the Hyuga Clan. They never get enough attention out of the entire series, always overlooked by the Uchiha.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bakkhos
2008-01-27 05:14 pm UTC (link)
It's a bit understandable, though, given that Itachi and Sasuke are more central to the main plot. It would be interesting to see how the two clans interacted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]amelia_seyroon, 2008-01-27 06:59 pm UTC

[info]zapenstap
2008-01-26 11:51 pm UTC (link)
Definitely some new ideas! I'll be happy to link back to you too, of course!!! I am new to the Naruto fandom so new friends are much appreciated, as is pimping of any kind! ^^

I like that you compared Itachi's story to Zabuza's and stressed that Kishimoto's villains aren't one dimensional. It upsets me when people draw generalizations from one piece of evidence, not to mention entirely different generalizations from different pieces of evidece. The story has to be cohesive. We can't throw out everything we know about Itachi just because he made a crazy face.

In my essay(s) on Itachi, I sought to show that Itachi is not someone who accepts other people's judgments of his choices while still owning his choices (and his "evilness") entirely. I don't want to excuse Itachi at all as the product of society, but I DO think it is important to examine the values of the society as influences...which you have done very VERY nicely. Wonderful work. Thanks for sharing your ideas!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bakkhos
2008-01-27 05:50 pm UTC (link)
The people who are making generalizations generally don't care about Itachi and Sasuke at all. If they did, they'd be interested in delving deeper. I'm not saying they have to agree with you or me, they just ought to be interested in looking at more than one picture taken out of context before they make judgments which is advice I should have followed when I decided the sky was falling after seeing the spoiler pic for the first time.

Thank you for commenting, and for linking!

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[info]agent420
2008-01-26 11:59 pm UTC (link)
You've singlehandedly restored my faith in humanity the series. PROPS TO YOU. *jumps on back and clings on*

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lucidfirefly
2008-01-27 05:56 am UTC (link)
I LOVE THAT ICON. ♥

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]agent420, 2008-01-27 08:01 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 05:15 pm UTC

[info]rinnychan
2008-01-27 01:33 am UTC (link)
I agree completely! Thank you for writing this. It got me thinking: Itachi is a man who has very good control over his emotions. He does not show anyone anything unless he wants to, unless he has a purpose. Whether or not Itachi was acting when he was young is another matter. A five year old doesn't have the intellectual capacity to put up a permanent farce, whether being influenced by someone else or not. When he's a bit older, maybe, but the fact remains that he made very conscious decisions and continues to do so. He also plans way in advance, as we can see.

Knowing this, why did Itachi show Sasuke what he did? The psycho!Itachi was part of a genjutsu. Itachi consciously showed it to him. Why?

Because he knows his brother still loves the shadow he left behind, and Sasuke needs to overcome his 'greatest obstacle.' Itachi needed to shred the last bits of hesistation in his little brother's mind.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bakkhos
2008-01-27 05:25 pm UTC (link)
You make a good point. I can't wait to see this fantastic battle (filled with flashbacks, hopefully. *crosses fingers*)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]rinnychan, 2008-01-27 05:28 pm UTC

[info]ivory_and_horn
2008-01-27 02:55 am UTC (link)
Your analysis is, as ever, wonderful. Detailed and logical, and the pics you choose from the manga are excellent. As I was reading your essay (and the one you linked!) a few thoughts occurred to me...

1. When the Uchiha upheld the custom, it must have really sucked to be an only child. As an only child, the greatest power you could achieve would only be yours for a few years, and lead to blindness and disgrace. And to be the youngest sibling, because as the youngest you would be free game. If you were a middle child, you still had a chance to survive by killing your younger sibling, or being too much trouble for the eldest to go after when there was an easier target.

2. There must have been lots of pressure on Uchiha mothers to have lots of kids. If the Sharingan is restricted to men only (can women have the Sharingan? Canon implies no; the only female Uchihas we've seen are Mikoto and that anime aunt, both of whom are inactive and a civilian respectively. Alas, with the clan gone, we may never know.) then the pressure would be on for two sons. Uchiha daughters might have been viewed as good for baby-making only, and would go about that duty with the knowledge that at least one child was doomed to die. :/

3. Maybe the whole sibling-killing aspect of the clan's legacy is why Fugaku's (outward) attitude to Sasuke changed after the incident with Shisui's suicide note? Maybe he suspected Itachi had obtained the Mangekyou, and was therefore hoping to sort of...shore up Sasuke's defenses in case Itachi went after his eyes. But it was to little, too late.

4. On that note, maybe his attitude towards Sasuke was informed by the practice of sibling-killing--even if it didn't go on anymore, possibly the attitude of "the younger children are of less worth" carried on. In expressing affection for Sasuke, Fugaku may have felt that he was expressing weakness by caring for the weaker, less worthy child. Hence, he keeps it to private talks with Mikoto.

5. More evidence against the practice of friend-and-sibling-killing going on the Sasuke's day: at one point it's shown that Fugaku attempts to threaten Itachi into obedience. In doing so, he flashes his Sharingan--but it's just the regular one. Considering he was both clan head and chief of police, if anyone would have had the Mangekyou, Fugaku should have. If he did, why wouldn't he use it to keep Itachi in line? If in Fugaku's day the practice of obtaining the Mangekyou and making it permanent was going on, then flashing just the Sharingan would have been something of an empty threat, wouldn't it?

Haha, mostly past and clan speculation because I can't think of anything new to add to the Itachi discussion--your post, the essay you linked, and all the comments have basically covered anything I could think of to say. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]lucidfirefly
2008-01-27 06:02 am UTC (link)
I don't believe the practice was active in Fugaku's day. Most likely to be a active part of Konoha the clan would of had to submit to the laws of the village which would ban such a barbaric practice; especially since they seem to be enemies with Hidden Mist and would naturally disdain anything resembling their training methods.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]ivory_and_horn, 2008-01-28 06:02 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 06:47 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]ivory_and_horn, 2008-01-28 06:12 am UTC

[info]dayadhvam_triad
2008-01-27 03:38 am UTC (link)
*takes deep breath* Oh, just lovely analysis. Can't really say much since I'm about to go to sleep and my mind is not working as well as it could be XP, but I think I'll be back in the morning to think about it. :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]dayadhvam_triad
2008-01-27 06:07 pm UTC (link)
So I started off reading over the chapter again and my comments became too long. *sheepish* Dunno if you're interested in reading what I thought about it, it's pretty scattered and all over the place, but :) if you want to, here.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-27 06:18 pm UTC

[info]fukkafyla
2008-01-27 12:01 pm UTC (link)
The complex villain also allows for such delicious ironies as these: Itachi and Sasuke may both be convinced that they must kill the other in order for them to restore the honor of their clan. If that isn't epic storytelling, I don't know what is.

YES.

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[info]bakkhos
2008-01-27 07:53 pm UTC (link)
Sasuke disagrees.

title or description

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[info]abyssinian_blue
2008-01-28 10:57 pm UTC (link)
Mmm. I love this essay! Especially the last paragraph. So beautiful:).

It makes me wonder if the clan had adhered to the old traditions of power, whether Itachi would have been satisfied and content to live out his life as they did, or whether he would have connected any better. Every way I see it, I see him lashing out in some way. Interesting.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bakkhos
2008-01-29 08:29 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! :3

I wonder! It wouldn't surprise me if he were the restless sort ... if no matter what situation he was in, he'd want to be in another, anxious to affect his world in a big way.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Itachi's Mission now Pein's
(Anonymous)
2008-01-29 05:41 am UTC (link)
This I find interesting. Pein is chosen by Madara (quoted in 385) to retrieve the Kyuubi who runs into Jiraya instead. Was not that Itachi's task? It makes me wonder if Madara, founder of Akatsuki, has now considered Itachi a renegade of the organization.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Itachi's Mission now Pein's
[info]senior_witch
2008-01-29 12:02 pm UTC (link)
Not only this, but just as Orochimaru he thinks now that Sasuke is the more gifted of the two brothers.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Itachi's Mission now Pein's - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-29 08:33 pm UTC
Re: Itachi's Mission now Pein's - [info]bakkhos, 2008-01-29 08:31 pm UTC

[info]priscalthum
2008-03-12 12:14 am UTC (link)
Thank you for your post. I agree completely; I had high hopes for a tragic character from the moment I came across this; it was only in the recent chapters with Itachi's crazed face that I almost *gasp* lost hope. Thank you, thank you for your magnificent post

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]bakkhos
2008-03-14 06:52 pm UTC (link)
Thank you for commenting! I'm really glad you liked it. I think this new chapter really illustrates that Itachi is far from a genius mastermind, but is in fact very, awfully, heartbreakingly human.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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